What now? - Abort puppies?

"Julia Altshuler" wrote in message

> I'll admit to deleting without reading a lot of the "over protective dog"
> thread. It got boring with people repeating themselves a while ago. So I
> apologize if this subject has been brought up. Here's my question: What
> now?
>
>
> I think the cabal is pretty much in agreement that Peter shouldn't have
> bred Gretchen, that if he was going to breed her he should have known a
> lot more about breeding and Danes and should have gotten a number of tests
> done. That's in the past.
>
Thank you. I agree.
>
> Is there any concensus on what would be the best thing to do now?
>
>
> Peter, how far along is she? When are the puppies due? How is she acting
> during the pregnancy? How's her health?
>
She was mated on the 18, 19 & 20th of Jan. Her expected due date is about
Mar. 21.
Her health and temperment are both good. She is sleeping more than usual.
>
> Cabal, what's the collective wisdom on spaying a bitch during pregnancy?
> Are there risks? Is there anything that might turn an earlier bad
> decision into a present not-as-bad situation?
>
I understand some peoples convictions, but I won't do this unless deemed
medically necessary by her vet.
Peter
>
> (I know it's useless to try to direct where a conversation goes ahead of
> time, but I'm going to do it anyway. Could we PLEASE keep away from the
> human abortion issue and keep to talking about dogs? Deep breath, a dog
> is not a person; a puppy is not a baby.)
>
>
> --Lia
>
 >> Stay informed about: What now? - Abort puppies? 

"Peter" wrote in message:

> She was mated on the 18, 19 & 20th of Jan. Her expected due date is about
> Mar. 21.

I have a question for those who know this sort of thing. It is my
understanding that a bitch can conceive on multiple days during her heat.
How does this affect the puppies, because I'm thinking that some pups will
be a couple of days younger than others. Am I missing something? Are those
the ones that turn out to be runts? Or maybe I'm wrong about the basic
premise.

Suja
 >> Stay informed about: What now? - Abort puppies? 

Is the spay done now preferable to allowing the pups to be born and
trying to find homes for them?


What about if Peter took responsibility (financial and commitment) for
spaying and neutering the pups as part of finding homes for them?


As I said in my earlier post, I'm trying to find the best course of
action now in an already bad situation.


--Lia
 >> Stay informed about: What now? - Abort puppies? 

In article ,
Julia Altshuler wrote:

> Is the spay done now preferable to allowing the pups to be born and
> trying to find homes for them?
>
>
> What about if Peter took responsibility (financial and commitment) for
> spaying and neutering the pups as part of finding homes for them?
>
>
> As I said in my earlier post, I'm trying to find the best course of
> action now in an already bad situation.
>
>
> --Lia

He SAYS he has home for all of them (even though he has no idea how many
"all" *is*), with family and friends, that they aren't for sale.

The responsibilities of a responsible breeder are huge. I can't fathom
being up to the task. I see the work that Marcie's breeder did, before
during and after puppies, as well as her commitment for the life of the
puppies, and I'm in awe. Especially because she's an insanely busy
person in the rest of her life.

That's not to say people like Montana didn't do a bang up job of
stepping up to the plate when they found themselves "with puppies", and
did a heck of a lot of work. Just that the effort going in to planning
a well bred litter, having clear goals, being able to choose what
puppy(ies) to keep to be best for a breeding program, choosing the sire
and dam with great care, getting titles (and in this case, not
conformation titles) on the dogs to prove who they are, etc, etc, etc,
are quite daunting.

--
Janet Boss
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
 >> Stay informed about: What now? - Abort puppies? 

This message is not archived
 >> Stay informed about: What now? - Abort puppies? 

"montana wildhack" wrote in message:

> It was horrible losing one of our puppies and
> the amount of work was overwhelming for the 8-9 weeks we had them.

You and DH did a super job with the pups, IMO. I'm pretty sure we wouldn't
have fared half as well (I am deeply attached to my sleep). While we
would've gotten through it, it would more than likely not have been with
both our sanities intact.

> So I can't imagine that Peter is going to stop the pregnancy, so I
> suggest Googling the SuperPuppy program and we can all help supply
> links to help give those puppies a head start. He's got a lot of work
> to do to "do right" by those puppies.

I already gave him the link to the Super Puppy program. I really hope that
he takes the advice and information he has been given to heart, and does an
absolute bang-up job with these pups.

Also, I agree with you that he should be lining up good, responsible homes
for all the potential puppies. I can't tell you how many times I've heard
'All my friends said they wanted one, but then decided the puppy was too
much work, or they didn't have time right now, or their vacation plans
interfered, or ....' Fact is, not too many people want to commit themselves
to having giant, slobbery dogs around that absolutely require a good deal of
training (not to mention, gobs of the right kind of food).

Suja
 >> Stay informed about: What now? - Abort puppies? 

This message is not archived
 >> Stay informed about: What now? - Abort puppies? 

"montana wildhack" wrote in message

> On 2008-02-08 20:23:15 -0500, "Suja" said:
>
>
> Even if he had a waiting list and healthy deposits, people still back out.
> And in Tiny's family's case, they
> had at least one pup returned. All our puppy families had to agree to
> return them to us no questions asked if necessary. (!)


Our's are also. No matter how long a time they have been gone. the
contract signed says 'they must be returned to us if for any reason they
are no longer wanted at their adoptive homes.' They have all been
micro-chipped and neutered. At least three of the five are using the vet
practice that contributed all their pre and postnatal care. The adoptive
families have our phone numbers and email addresses. We all love those
pups.



>
 >> Stay informed about: What now? - Abort puppies? 

Suja wrote:
>
> I have a question for those who know this sort of thing. It is my
> understanding that a bitch can conceive on multiple days during her heat.
> How does this affect the puppies, because I'm thinking that some pups will
> be a couple of days younger than others. Am I missing something?

Nope, you're not missing anything. Utah recently sired his first litter
via fresh-chilled artificial insemination. We did inseminations on days
1, 3 and 4 of the dam's fertile period as determined by quantititative
progesterone testing.

We ended up with two 15 ounce puppies, seven puppies in the 9-10 ounce
range, and one that was only 5 ounces. Cupcake - the little one - failed
to thrive and in spite of intensive nursing died at 10 days of age :-(.

At any rate, given the difference in the sizes of the puppies, it's a
pretty good bet that each "batch" of puppies was conceived on a separate
insemination.

> Are those the ones that turn out to be runts?

Runts at birth, yes, but that doesn't necessarily equate to small size
in adulthood. K.C., my first Briard, was the runt of his litter, but
ended up 2.5" taller than the maximum height in the standard - HUGE!

HTH,

Dianne
 >> Stay informed about: What now? - Abort puppies? 

Janet Boss wrote:
> He SAYS he has home for all of them (even though he has no idea how many
> "all" *is*), with family and friends, that they aren't for sale.

My two suggestions would be 1) an ultrasound (at the appropriate time) to
get a better estimate of the number of homes required, and 2) a
behaviorist, just to be sure the stress of new motherhood and raising a
litter doesn't increase Gretchen's undesirable behaviors. Hips and elbows
can be done when she's spayed (iirc, Peter said that was the plan). His
trusted vet can
 >> Stay informed about: What now? - Abort puppies? 

tiny dancer wrote:
>
> Our's are also. No matter how long a time they have been gone. the
> contract signed says 'they must be returned to us if for any reason they
> are no longer wanted at their adoptive homes.' They have all been
> micro-chipped and neutered.

Yes!!!! That is definitely the way to do it. I am a BIG fan
of having puppies chipped before they leave their breeders,
and wish that both AKC and animal control authorities required
it <*sigh*>.

Here's an incident that happened to one of my rescue buddies.
She got a dog back after he ended up in a shelter becauses they
were able to trace his microchip back to her - and boy, was
she EVER pissed. I knew how carefully she screened her homes
(actually the way I'd met her was that I'd adopted from her)
and she used a contract requiring return of the dog if the
owners could not keep it for any reason.

So she hunted down the people who had adopted the dog from
her and wanted to know what had happened. It turned out that
they'd decided after a while that they didn't want to keep the
dog after all and gave him to some friends (in violation of
the contract, of course). The friends also got bored with
him fairly quickly and ended up just letting him run loose.
They didn't even bother checking the shelter when he failed
to return home.

So that microchip ended up saving that dog's bacon. No matter
how good potential homes seem, and how many promises they make,
you can never be 100% sure they'll follow through later on down
the road :-(.

Dianne
 >> Stay informed about: What now? - Abort puppies? 

"Julia Altshuler" wrote in message

> I'll admit to deleting without reading a lot of the "over protective dog"
> thread. It got boring with people repeating themselves a while ago. So I
> apologize if this subject has been brought up. Here's my question: What
> now?
>
>
> I think the cabal is pretty much in agreement that Peter shouldn't have
> bred Gretchen, that if he was going to breed her he should have known a
> lot more about breeding and Danes and should have gotten a number of tests
> done. That's in the past.
>
>
> Is there any concensus on what would be the best thing to do now?
>
>
> Peter, how far along is she? When are the puppies due? How is she acting
> during the pregnancy? How's her health?
>
>
> Cabal, what's the collective wisdom on spaying a bitch during pregnancy?
> Are there risks? Is there anything that might turn an earlier bad
> decision into a present not-as-bad situation?
>
>
> (I know it's useless to try to direct where a conversation goes ahead of
> time, but I'm going to do it anyway. Could we PLEASE keep away from the
> human abortion issue and keep to talking about dogs? Deep breath, a dog
> is not a person; a puppy is not a baby.)


I think the best thing to do is find the best homes, and make sure that
their contract states that they go back to Peter should anything go wrong.
Peter should work with the puppy owners to ensure they get what they need to
become happy, healthy adults.
 >> Stay informed about: What now? - Abort puppies?