over protective dog

"Judith Althouse" wrote in message

> Peter said in part.....
> Here's the issue: About a year ago I developed a debilitating
> illness. I wasn't able to do much work with her, or even take her on
> walks for several months. During this time, Gretchen became very
> overprotective of me, particularly with strangers. I've recovered
> considerably now and we have resumed most of our previous daily
> regiments. But now when we encounter people outside of the pack, she
> has become very wary of them, raising her hackles and barking at
> them..................
> _____________________
> Peter,
> I am just offering my thoughts, based on what you posted, and the fact
> that I have had dogs all of my life. I have no training in dog
> behavior.
> I am guessing that due to the fact that you and Gretchen were fairly
> isolated while you were ill, that she became very posessive of you.

Undeniably. She does not behave this way with any other pack members.

> Also, at age one, she was still in the stage of learning to socialize
> with the outside world, that socialization time was halted due to your
> illness. I believe that an obedience class is a good place for her to
> learn or re-learn those skills.

Excelent advice. She is pregnant right now, so it will have to wait a few
months. My wife and I are planning to keep one of the pups and would like to
take them to classes together eventually.

> The only other suggestion I have to offer is that at age one, a dog of
> that size is certainly not mature, and if she was going to have
> behavioral problems of any kind, they may not have occured until she was
> mature. (now) I would continue to do what you are doing, taking her for
> walks, taking her to the dog park, provided you have complete control of
> her. I certainly would not allow her off leash at the dog park while
> she is exhibiting this behavior. I know you said she calms right down
> after 10-15 minutes.

I live in a *very* small town (pop. 300, including Gretchen), so we don't
have a "dog park" as such, just a regular park. Fortunately the edge of town
is 2 blocks away. Plenty of open country to run. But I like to take her into
town with me, Petco, the vet or doggie daycare if we've got shopping to do.
She see's the same people every time at daycare and she exibits this
behavior
every time, but only if *I* am with her. Very frustrating.

> Keep in mind the above is my opinion, it does not make me right. One
> thing I am sure of is that you must be in complete control of a dog
> exhibiting behavior like that, as it could escalate. Perhaps you should
> seek out a behaviorist. Good luck with Gretchen, and good health to
> you.
>
>
> Be Free.....Judy
>
Thanks for the kind response.
Peter
 >> Stay informed about: over protective dog 

On Feb 5, 7:29 pm, "Peter" wrote:
> "Judith Althouse" wrote in message
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Peter said in part.....
> >  Here's the issue:  About a year ago I developed a debilitating
> > illness.  I wasn't able to do much work with her, or even take her on
> > walks for several months.  During this time, Gretchen became very
> > overprotective of me, particularly with strangers.  I've recovered
> > considerably now and we have resumed most of our previous daily
> > regiments.  But now when we encounter people outside of the pack, she
> > has become very wary of them, raising her hackles and barking at
> > them..................
> > _____________________
> > Peter,
> >  I am just offering my thoughts, based on what you posted, and the fact
> > that I have had dogs all of my life.  I have no training in dog
> > behavior.
> >  I am guessing that due to the fact that you and Gretchen were fairly
> > isolated while you were ill, that she became very posessive of you.
>
> Undeniably. She does not behave this way with any other pack members.
>
> > Also, at age one, she was still in the stage of learning to socialize
> > with the outside world, that socialization time was halted due to your
> > illness.  I believe that an obedience class is a good place for her to
> > learn or re-learn those skills.
>
> Excelent advice. She is pregnant right now, so it will have to wait a few
> months. My wife and I are planning to keep one of the pups and would like to
> take them to classes together eventually.
>

I would consider having her do some overnights with some of your
friends that she knows and likes. She hasn't had enough exposure to
the world.

I would also be very careful about puppy placement. She doens't sound
like a particularly sound dog and probably shouldn't be reproducing.
So be sure to disclose her behaviors to people who want pups so that
they can choose whether they want to take on a potentially iffy dog of
such a size.
 >> Stay informed about: over protective dog 

<<<<But now when we encounter people outside of the pack she is very
wary of
them, raising her hackles and barking. This generally only happens
when they try
to engage her in some way, and only lasts for a few minutes, 5-15, and
then she
relaxes if they completely ignore her.>>>>>

From this description, I would say she is not very sound. Generally
sound dogs don't raise their hackles and bark at strangers. Hopefully
you can help her to overcome this behavior and it was just caused by
her lack of socialization, but I still suggest the pups only go to
very experienced dog owners and that they are aware of mom's
tendencies.
 >> Stay informed about: over protective dog 

"lookingaround" wrote in message

On Feb 5, 7:29 pm, "Peter" wrote:
> "Judith Althouse" wrote in message
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Peter said in part.....
> > Here's the issue: About a year ago I developed a debilitating
> > illness. I wasn't able to do much work with her, or even take her on
> > walks for several months. During this time, Gretchen became very
> > overprotective of me, particularly with strangers. I've recovered
> > considerably now and we have resumed most of our previous daily
> > regiments. But now when we encounter people outside of the pack, she
> > has become very wary of them, raising her hackles and barking at
> > them..................
> > _____________________
> > Peter,
> > I am just offering my thoughts, based on what you posted, and the fact
> > that I have had dogs all of my life. I have no training in dog
> > behavior.
> > I am guessing that due to the fact that you and Gretchen were fairly
> > isolated while you were ill, that she became very posessive of you.
>
> Undeniably. She does not behave this way with any other pack members.
>
> > Also, at age one, she was still in the stage of learning to socialize
> > with the outside world, that socialization time was halted due to your
> > illness. I believe that an obedience class is a good place for her to
> > learn or re-learn those skills.
>
> Excelent advice. She is pregnant right now, so it will have to wait a few
> months. My wife and I are planning to keep one of the pups and would like
> to
> take them to classes together eventually.
>

I would consider having her do some overnights with some of your
friends that she knows and likes. She hasn't had enough exposure to
the world.

Another good idea. I'll give it a try, thanks.

I would also be very careful about puppy placement. She doens't sound
like a particularly sound dog and probably shouldn't be reproducing.
So be sure to disclose her behaviors to people who want pups so that
they can choose whether they want to take on a potentially iffy dog of
such a size.

While I appreciate your advice, whats been written here hardly gives
you enough information to make such a diagnosis. I certainly wouldn't
have bred her without her vet having OK'd her for breeding. Aside
from this one issue, which really seems quite minor to me, she is an
exceptional example of the breed. She hasn't lunger or behaved aggresively
towards anyone, just very wary.

Thanks for your response,
Peter
 >> Stay informed about: over protective dog 

"Peter" wrote in message

>
> "lookingaround" wrote in message
>
> On Feb 5, 7:29 pm, "Peter" wrote:
>> "Judith Althouse" wrote in message
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > Peter said in part.....
>> > Here's the issue: About a year ago I developed a debilitating
>> > illness. I wasn't able to do much work with her, or even take her on
>> > walks for several months. During this time, Gretchen became very
>> > overprotective of me, particularly with strangers. I've recovered
>> > considerably now and we have resumed most of our previous daily
>> > regiments. But now when we encounter people outside of the pack, she
>> > has become very wary of them, raising her hackles and barking at
>> > them..................
>> > _____________________
>> > Peter,
>> > I am just offering my thoughts, based on what you posted, and the fact
>> > that I have had dogs all of my life. I have no training in dog
>> > behavior.
>> > I am guessing that due to the fact that you and Gretchen were fairly
>> > isolated while you were ill, that she became very posessive of you.
>>
>> Undeniably. She does not behave this way with any other pack members.
>>
>> > Also, at age one, she was still in the stage of learning to socialize
>> > with the outside world, that socialization time was halted due to your
>> > illness. I believe that an obedience class is a good place for her to
>> > learn or re-learn those skills.
>>
>> Excelent advice. She is pregnant right now, so it will have to wait a few
>> months. My wife and I are planning to keep one of the pups and would like
>> to
>> take them to classes together eventually.
>>
>
> I would consider having her do some overnights with some of your
> friends that she knows and likes. She hasn't had enough exposure to
> the world.
>
> Another good idea. I'll give it a try, thanks.
>
> I would also be very careful about puppy placement. She doens't sound
> like a particularly sound dog and probably shouldn't be reproducing.
> So be sure to disclose her behaviors to people who want pups so that
> they can choose whether they want to take on a potentially iffy dog of
> such a size.
>
> While I appreciate your advice, whats been written here hardly gives
> you enough information to make such a diagnosis. I certainly wouldn't
> have bred her without her vet having OK'd her for breeding. Aside
> from this one issue, which really seems quite minor to me, she is an
> exceptional example of the breed. She hasn't lunger or behaved aggresively
> towards anyone, just very wary.
>
> Thanks for your response,
> Peter


Although I don't have any advice for you on how to change or defuse the
current behavior better than has already been suggested, I think I
understand what you are describing. My Gracie was in a number of foster
homes, some that were basically just a place to keep her alive until a home
could be found for her. By that I mean, she was in situations where she was
one of a number of dogs being cared for, fed, etc., without any sort of
*bonding* with humans, just basic care.

When we got her, she bonded with me almost immediately. She was a bit wary
at first, but as soon as I laid down on my bed and patted the place beside
me, telling her to 'come on, come up here with me', she jumped up and
BONDED. She couldn't place her body close enough to me. Kept crawling
closer and closer to me, until she had finally wedged her head right under
my chin, burying her face on my chest. She settled in, sighed hugely, and
within a short time of me petting her and talking to her, she fell into a
deep, sound sleep, snoring loudly. It was so bittersweet, as though she had
been looking for somebody to love for such a long time.

Other than being closely bonded with me, I detect no other lack of
*soundness* in her. When I read your description, of having spent a good
number of months incapacitated and alone with Gretchen, it reminded me of my
Gracie. Perhaps it will simply take time for her to gradually be weaned
from her attachment to you, as it took awhile for that attachment to grow as
it has. I'm thinking she sensed that you *needed* her for so long, it will
take her awhile to learn/understand that you no longer have such a
vulnerable *need* anymore.

Please keep us updated as to Gretchen's progress, and I would love to know
when the puppies are born and see photo's of them.

td


>
>
 >> Stay informed about: over protective dog 

"Peter" wrote in message:

> I certainly wouldn't
> have bred her without her vet having OK'd her for breeding.

Vets would okay any dog for breeding that has functioning reproductive
organs. It doesn't mean that they *should* be bred.

> from this one issue, which really seems quite minor to me, she is an
> exceptional example of the breed.

An over protective Dane is more than a minor problem. Have you had
independent verification from breed-savvy folks that she has the right type
of conformation and temperament for a Dane? Has she been health tested?
Standard would be OFA Hips, Elbows, Thyroid, Heart, and CERF.

There are A TON of Danes in rescue. My local rescue has taken in 9 homeless
Danes in the month of January, and there are 3- 4 more waiting to come in,
but can't due to the lack of foster space. The advice to take great care in
placing these giant dogs in Dane savvy homes, stands.

Suja
 >> Stay informed about: over protective dog 

"Suja" spoke these words of wisdom in


>
> "Peter" wrote in message:
>
>> I certainly wouldn't
>> have bred her without her vet having OK'd her for breeding.
>
> Vets would okay any dog for breeding that has functioning reproductive
> organs. It doesn't mean that they *should* be bred.
>

I concur with this.
>> from this one issue, which really seems quite minor to me, she is an
>> exceptional example of the breed.
>
> An over protective Dane is more than a minor problem.
An overprotective bitch will only become MORE overprotective if she has
pups. Why would you anyone breed this bitch?

I would discount the bitch as a breeding prospect on that point by it'self.
Have you had
> independent verification from breed-savvy folks that she has the right
> type of conformation and temperament for a Dane? Has she been health
> tested? Standard would be OFA Hips, Elbows, Thyroid, Heart, and CERF.
Just in case you are wondering what kind of documents she's talking about,
there are a certain SET of documents that breeders (good responsible
breeders, anyway) will REQUIRE before breeding.
http://shell2.lomag.net/~moosedog/Tuck/health.html
These will vary according to breed.
>
> There are A TON of Danes in rescue. My local rescue has taken in 9
> homeless Danes in the month of January, and there are 3- 4 more waiting
> to come in, but can't due to the lack of foster space. The advice to
> take great care in placing these giant dogs in Dane savvy homes, stands.
>
> Suja
>

Great advice Suja!
>
 >> Stay informed about: over protective dog 

"Suja" wrote in message

>
> "Peter" wrote in message:
>
>> I certainly wouldn't
>> have bred her without her vet having OK'd her for breeding.
>
> Vets would okay any dog for breeding that has functioning reproductive
> organs. It doesn't mean that they *should* be bred.
>
Well, duh.
>
>> from this one issue, which really seems quite minor to me, she is an
>> exceptional example of the breed.
>
> An over protective Dane is more than a minor problem.

Well this is really a subjective determination which would have to be
determined
through direct interaction with the dog, which I have and you do not. So
I'll continue
to treat it as a minor problem unless it escalates.

>Have you had
> independent verification from breed-savvy folks

Why do you assume that I am not breed savvy? She is my 5th Dane after all.

>that she has the right type
> of conformation and temperament for a Dane? Has she been health tested?
> Standard would be OFA Hips, Elbows, Thyroid, Heart, and CERF.
>
Once again the only response to that is well, duh. Quit assuming you're
talking to an amateur.
>
> There are A TON of Danes in rescue.
>
Yes, I've had the pleasure of rescueing 4 of them myself.
>
>My local rescue has taken in 9 homeless
> Danes in the month of January, and there are 3- 4 more waiting to come in,
> but can't due to the lack of foster space.
>
Where? I'll contact them and see if I can be of any help.
>
>The advice to take great care in
> placing these giant dogs in Dane savvy homes, stands.
>
Good advice for any breed, thanks,
Peter
>
> Suja
 >> Stay informed about: over protective dog 

"Peter" spoke these words of wisdom in


>
>>Have you had
>> independent verification from breed-savvy folks
>
> Why do you assume that I am not breed savvy? She is my 5th Dane after
all.

I know a lot of people in many breeds who have bred poor specimens for
years. They think the dogs are wonderful specimens, yet anyone in the
breed, looking at the fiddle front, poor bite, awful genetics, that in the
end, the only thing that was an excellent specimen was a figment in their
brains. It certainly wasn't the dog.

Based on your previous posts, you do not sound like a savvy folks. I don't
care if you've owned 1000 Danes, your bar for breeding criteria is REALLY
low.


>
>>that she has the right type
>> of conformation and temperament for a Dane? Has she been health tested?
>> Standard would be OFA Hips, Elbows, Thyroid, Heart, and CERF.
>>
> Once again the only response to that is well, duh. Quit assuming you're
> talking to an amateur.
Would you mind giving us the OFA HIP certs, Elbows Certs, Thyroid Certs,
Heart Certs, and CERF Certs, and if you can do that, and after thoroughly
checking them out, we will get back to you and talk to you like a non-
amateur.

with apologies, of course.

>>
 >> Stay informed about: over protective dog 

Peter wrote:

> Well this is really a subjective determination which would have
> to be determined through direct interaction with the dog, which I
> have and you do not. So I'll continue to treat it as a minor
> problem unless it escalates.

If it was a big enough problem that you to sought the advice of a
bunch of strangers, then I suspect it's not so minor.

FWIW, what you described is similar to the way my dog has, at times,
reacted to strangers. It's *very* wrong for her breed, and there's
no way on earth I would willingly pass on her genes.

> Why do you assume that I am not breed savvy? She is my 5th Dane after all.

Perhaps the fact that you described them as having the temperament
of a Lab? Or the fact that you bred a Dane with fear aggression issues?

> Once again the only response to that is well, duh. Quit assuming you're
> talking to an amateur.

It's a very basic question that any breeder ought to be willing and
eager to answer. I would run from a breeder who answered "Duh."

--
Shelly
http://www.cat-sidh.net (the Mother Ship)
http://esther.cat-sidh.net (Letters to Esther)
 >> Stay informed about: over protective dog 

"Peter" wrote in message:

> Well this is really a subjective determination which would have to be
> determined
> through direct interaction with the dog, which I have and you do not. So
> I'll continue
> to treat it as a minor problem unless it escalates.

While I agree that you know more about your dog than we do (DUH!), I'm not
sure how minor the problem is is, in light of the fact that you sought out
advice on it on a behavior forum from a bunch of strangers.

> Why do you assume that I am not breed savvy? She is my 5th Dane after all.

Which means what exactly? People sometimes own dogs or certain breeds of
dogs for decades and still know very little about how to go about properly
breeding a dog.

> Once again the only response to that is well, duh. Quit assuming you're
> talking to an amateur.

In which case, you wouldn't mind telling us the registered name of the sire
and the dam. If they've been OFA'd and CERFed, we shouldn't have any
trouble looking them up.

> Where? I'll contact them and see if I can be of any help.

Mid-Atlantic. Are you in the area?

Suja

P.S. Please do not email me privately. I'd like to keep most of my
interactions on a public forum out of my inbox.
 >> Stay informed about: over protective dog 

"diddy" <none> wrote in message

> "Suja" spoke these words of wisdom in
>
>
>>
>> "Peter" wrote in message:
>>
>>> I certainly wouldn't
>>> have bred her without her vet having OK'd her for breeding.
>>
>> Vets would okay any dog for breeding that has functioning reproductive
>> organs. It doesn't mean that they *should* be bred.
>>
>
> I concur with this.

Maybe you should consider finding a vet who's ethics more closely match your
own.

>>> from this one issue, which really seems quite minor to me, she is an
>>> exceptional example of the breed.
>>
>> An over protective Dane is more than a minor problem.
> An overprotective bitch will only become MORE overprotective if she has
> pups. Why would you anyone breed this bitch?
>
> I would discount the bitch as a breeding prospect on that point by
> it'self.
> Have you had
>> independent verification from breed-savvy folks that she has the right
>> type of conformation and temperament for a Dane? Has she been health
>> tested? Standard would be OFA Hips, Elbows, Thyroid, Heart, and CERF.
> Just in case you are wondering what kind of documents she's talking about,
> there are a certain SET of documents that breeders (good responsible
> breeders, anyway) will REQUIRE before breeding.
> http://shell2.lomag.net/~moosedog/Tuck/health.html
> These will vary according to breed.
>>
>> There are A TON of Danes in rescue. My local rescue has taken in 9
>> homeless Danes in the month of January, and there are 3- 4 more waiting
>> to come in, but can't due to the lack of foster space. The advice to
>> take great care in placing these giant dogs in Dane savvy homes, stands.
>>
>> Suja
>>
>
> Great advice Suja!
>>
>
 >> Stay informed about: over protective dog 

"Peter" spoke these words of wisdom in

>>> Vets would okay any dog for breeding that has functioning reproductive
>>> organs. It doesn't mean that they *should* be bred.
>>>
>>
>> I concur with this.
>
> Maybe you should consider finding a vet who's ethics more closely match
> your own.
My vet DOES OFA and CERF his own dogs, whether he's going to breed them or
not.

But saying a dog is in healthy condition that could sustain a pregnancy
safely is NOT the same as saying the dog SHOULD be bred.
 >> Stay informed about: over protective dog